We all know that product marketers wear a lot of hats and are expected to be the ‘expert’ on just about everything… So what do they do when they’re just starting out at a company? In this episode, Nick sits down with Jason Oakley, Senior Director of Product Marketing at Klue, to discuss:
- Why so many PMM’s can feel an “imposter syndrome” when they aren’t the expert at something
- How to put more definition behind the value a person brings to a company as a PMM
- And why the “disagree and commit” framework may just be a product marketers best friend.
If you’re a product marketer that’s just starting out in a new role OR you’re feeling anxious in how you fit into the team, this episode is for you.
Finding Value as a PMM
Do PMM’s get Imposter Syndrome?
Nick: Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind the Gap, a podcast seeking sales and marketing alignment. I’m your host, Nick Ziech-Lopez, and today I’m joined by Jason Oakley. Jason, how’s it going?
Jason: Pretty good, Nick. Thanks for having me. How are you doing?
Nick: Absolutely. I’m doing well. We are currently recording this just a few days before Christmas, so this may be one of the last things I do before heading out of the office for the break.
Now Jason, you’re a worldwide name. Everybody at home, they know you. They know who you are. But for those that don’t, who is Jason? What do you do?
Jason: Yeah, sure. My name’s Jason Oakley. I’m based out of Canada, so Collingwood, Canada is where I live. It’s like a town, a couple of hours outside of Toronto, Canada. I’m the senior director of product marketing at Klue.
So Klue, for anyone who’s not familiar with Klue, we’re a competitive enablement platform. So, we’re essentially the first platform that combines competitive intelligence and the collection of essentially raw, competitive data whether it’s external, being you know monitoring, sailing competitor web pages, social media news sites all of that to collect kind of Intel about your competitors, but also internally.
So within the four walls of your company, also being able to collect internal data, source data from Intel from your sales team, product team, things like that.
The collection of competitive Intel, but then also the ability to turn that into insights and enable your stakeholders within your business like sales team, CS team, your product team with insights that they can use to compete better against your competition. So whether it’s to sell better, increase win rates, create a product roadmap. That’s more in line with competing against your top competitors.
Essentially a platform that combines it all into one central platform. That’s someone who manages, whether it’s a product marketer or a competitive kind of intelligence or enablement team in your company, it’s their go-to platform for all that work.
Nick: Could you do that for this podcast? Like why the other podcasts are succeeding, and not enough people are listening?
Jason: Yeah. You could, I guess if you wanted to monitor other podcasts that were are the companies that…
Nick: Alright right guy Roz. Guy Roz, then MPR. We’re coming for you.
You said senior director of product marketing. Quickly, how did you find your way to product marketing?
Jason: Yeah. I think no one goes to school to learn product marketing. I think that was definitely the case.
Nick: Yet, right?
Jason: Exactly. Yet, and obviously there’s tons of educational courses not like a traditional university, but I do think you will start to see that more.
But, when I went to business school, when I got out, I started in sales. I started my career in SAS as an account executive, and worked at a company called Verafin and started as an AE. I ended up doing a number of roles there. I was in field marketing, dabbled in a couple areas of marketing.
When I left Verafin, what I got into was customer marketing. That kind of transitioned me into CS, like customer success, that side of the org.I went and did customer success at a small five person startup called brownie points. Eventually started working at a company called Uberflip, where I was at CSN for a couple of years. But then I was approached by our CMO and the product marketer had just left. They had one product marker, and they were looking for a new one, but to build the product marketing function out more.
I think what I had was like a combination of a few skills. I think I had the empathy of understanding CS and sales and what those roles required and what they needed.
But, also throughout university and kind of always had side hustles and small businesses that I was kind of running. I had that entrepreneurial kind of DNA as well. In part of that running my own businesses, I’d always had the opportunity to dabble and cut my teeth on marketing.
So I had those. I wouldn’t say I was great at any of the skills, but I had enough to make me like a bit of a Jack of all trades. I think that’s like a good skill of product marketing. I had the tools. In my current role there, I just knew the product really well and I knew the customer.
Then, they offered me that job and I’ve been doing it ever since.
Nick: I’m imagining ten-year-old Jason hanging up your lemonade stand sign being like, “I’m so good at marketing right now.”
Jason: Yeah. I was definitely one of those guys who I loved the lemonade stand. I had my own paper. I was always that kind of stuff.
Nick: Yeah. I mean, and you have that newsletter on hustle culture. No, I’m joking.
Okay. So, what I want to talk about is, like you said, you know the product, you know the customer, you go to product marketing. I think that that’s endemic to the industry right now.
All right, who can sit between these two things in the way that the product manager used to be okay, you know the product and you know the user. Alright here, we put the product person in front of there to facilitate that back for the product marketer is kind of like the product and the customer. But, product marketers kind of do everything and I’m not going to say nothing, but product marketers do everything.It leads to this product marketing performance anxiety, or product marketing imposter syndrome that I want to talk about today.
So, we were talking the other day. We were talking through how we had both seen this. I don’t know what you want to call it where product marketers seem to feel threatened or are unsure of the value they bring to the community.
First of all, have you experienced this? Have you felt this? And how does this manifest itself?
Jason: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think the imposter syndrome is definitely, it’s something that if you were to say imposter syndrome for me, I know it enough to be like, yes, I know the concept.
I would say it’s something that I feel, I think one of the reasons we feel this idea of imposter syndrome is a lot of times I think product marketers. You might be the first product marketer at a company, or you might be brought into a pretty well established company as like maybe their first product marketer. You might be building the function of a startup, but I think part of marketing in general, it can have, in many times it is like a direct line to the CEO. It has a, it’s involved in a lot of these like strategic decisions because those strategic decisions have to do with go to market, with positioning, with category creation, like all those things involve product marketing to some extent.
I think a lot of product marketers are kind of thrust into this position where they’re involved with some of these high stakes conversations. They might not feel that they’re ready for that, or equipped enough to be in those conversations.
I think that there’s some imposter syndrome, but I do think as well, just like product marketing, I think at least I felt it. I know people that I managed to feel like it too. I think a lot of situations that a product marketer is in, whether it’s a social situation or whatever within the workplace, you’re put in these positions where you are high anxiety or stressful situations that have to do with kind of you feeling like you need to be capable of something or doing something or responsible for a particular thing that is not necessarily either in your wheelhouse or your expectations of like what you’re supposed to be doing as product market are too high.
So whether you call it imposter syndrome or you call it something else, there’s definitely that feeling.
Nick: This idea because product marketing spans so many disciplines.
It kind of sits between so many things. In many ways you might feel responsible whether it’s true or not, you might feel responsible if you’re in the company slack. Someone asks a positioning question and then a persona question, and then a pricing question, then a competitive Intel question. You kind of have to feel like you have to own all those things. It’s either not realistic or you feel…
I see that demand gen being a huge thing. I was actually speaking with the community the other day, where the question was like, so what does product marketing do with demand gen? Is demand gen taking something away from product marketing?
That right there you almost get to what I will call imposter syndrome of like, oh man, they’re hiring someone else, or oh man this other person knew something that I felt like I should have known. That’s bad. That’s like bad for me somehow, and you almost see that happening.
Jason: Yeah. I like your point too of I think product marketing is responsible for so many things.
Whether someone does something that you feel, oh should I have done that? What that creates for you is doubt like, shit am I not doing my job? Right? I think that happens a lot. It just could be that there are people who’ve been with the company a long time, and they know your competitors, or maybe they know positioning. It could be a really seasoned account executive who has at least an opinion on how you should position things. They’re chiming in just to be helpful on what’s helped them close deals, but that can create this feeling of I didn’t get there first. I think there’s this feeling with product marketers.
And again, I’m not speaking for all product marketers. I speak for myself and I speak for people I’ve talked to. But, I think take a competitive Intel for an example, or the competitive, when you’re trying to enable your sales team, not just like the Intel that you’re trying to enable them with, the insights and you have a competitive Intel channel.
A lot of people do this. It’s one of the first things I do if you don’t already have them, when you come to the company and you’re in the slack credit channel, that everyone can start to just toss in information about your competitors. I’ve been in a situation where say a couple of weeks go by and product marketing hasn’t posted anything in that channel, but sales team has been super active.
Sales and CS. They’ve been posting insights. I think as a product marketer, a lot of times, because I’ve been asked this from people I’ve managed, who’ve been like, is it bad that we’re not posting things in there? They have this feeling that our marketing is supposed to be like first. We’re supposed to be the ones that are the most proactive or the first to be able to give you insight like Intel right.
I think that it’s just unrealistic. A lot of the great Intel comes from conversations that your sales and CS team are having, or your product team, or anybody. Product marketers don’t need to be the ones who are providing all the Intel. Product marketers should be the ones that create the environment, the tools, and the processes to be able to just collect data from the team. They don’t need to be the first, but they’re the ones to create this environment where you’re able to collect everything and nothing gets missed.
That’s very much like a team game. Then a product marketers responsible for again, putting processes in place and just being the one to help wrap context around all those insights. But, you’re not the one that has to be first there with everything.
I think sometimes we put these unrealistic expectations that should. I’m supposed to be out there every day. I need to be checking the wire. I need to be the first with the press release. I need to know when they’re building a feature that I couldn’t possibly know, but a sales rep could pick up on because the prospect’s being pitched it by the competitor.
Right, so I think that’s one example that definitely resonates with me.
Nick: I think that perspective shift is useful if a product marketer doesn’t necessarily need to be the one that owns, or is first with the information for all these things. But, they are responsible for that community, that feeling that, that environment that allows others to contribute an ad, and then responsible for like meaningful takeaways from that. Like the, so what of those, and I think if you think about it that way, you don’t have to know everything as a product marker. You don’t.
Okay. By the way, there are some product marketers that have to know everything, right? You’re a senior director of product marketing. Maybe you have to know everything. I don’t know.
But, for PMMS and senior PMs, you don’t have to know everything. But you have to make sure that when people volunteer, when other people know things, something happens. There’s a takeaway or a do something.
Whether that’s reflected in the other things that you do own, whether that be positioning or pricing or what have you.
Jason: Yeah. I think another thing that happens too is, and you had alluded to this earlier is that this could just be a marketing thing in general. But it’s like as a marketer, you feel like you have to be the best wordsmith in the company. I think you need to be the one who if someone asks you like, hey I’m up against writing copy for the web page, what should our headline be?
Well one, I think it’s just in general people have a preset perception of positioning and messaging and copywriting is like people have different ideas of what that actually means. I think even as a product marketer, your job is to be able to figure out positioning and then create plain language messaging that your teams can use for example.
You’re not the one who always, you don’t go away into a hole and write messaging by yourself and then come out and be like, here it is. As a product marketer, your job should be more of a collaborative thing. That’s why I think the best messaging that you create and the best positioning that you come up with is more of a team game.
Whereas a product marketer like a sale, like an AAU has been selling for like a couple of years, might have way more insight than a product marketer who’s been on the job for a couple months, and you would need to be able to tap into those people.
You’re not saying, hey I’ve gone away for a week to write this, all the kind of figure out our positioning and write a bunch of messaging, then hand it to the sales team. They’re not, it’s not going to be any good.
Jason: But your job is to sit with all these people and together come up with it.
Nick: Well, that shift and we’re an enablement recipe on sales kickoffs right now for sales. It’s saying alright, whether it be a sales kickoff or positioning or whatever it is. I think the shift from this is a thing I have to create and bring to the company versus this is the thing I’m responsible for us all creating is huge. Right?
It takes away this hero ball Coby with the basketball with three seconds left to hey, we got to figure out how to score here and I just need to make sure that we get it.
Oftentimes, the people don’t want that. Right. People want to be a part of the team. People want to feel like they contributed to this.
So let’s say you crafted perfect positioning. Let’s say it was somehow perfect. If you just brought in the salespeople, a lot of sales teams would be like, well I don’t know this because they feel like they didn’t contribute. They don’t feel like they contribute. So having that environment I think is huge and it’s hard to do. It’s hard to do.
Jason: Yeah. Yeah. We’re just kind of going down, talking about these different examples. I think another thing that I see or that I’ve experienced is to that last point, you want to get feedback. It’s a team game, but we’re not going to get everyone’s feedback and everyone’s buy-in right.
Cause if you waited for that, you’d never get anything out the door. I think another thing that does cause that kind of stress or anxiety is when you’re ready to ship something. Right. There’s always going to be someone who maybe wasn’t in on that conversation or might not be invested in that messaging.
Right. And I think it’s one of those things too, is that it’s always an evolution, it’s always kind of you’re always improving as you go. I think we also need to be okay with this. It is ready to ship and not waiting until everyone signs off and it’s perfect. But being like okay, this is what we want to move forward with for now and just knowing too for now that some people aren’t going to agree with it, and it doesn’t mean that it’s not good positioning or it’s not good messaging. It just means that some people internally haven’t agreed with it.
I think at a certain point, this is why like, and we talked about this before, it’s like validating your messaging too.
So you want to collect everyone’s opinion. You want everyone to be, you want to collect opinions. You don’t want it to be just based on what you think, but at the same time too in the morning can back it up with data and like testing it beforehand. The more that when you do release it you’ll be able to take that feedback and be like okay, great.
I’m going to store that away and use that. But at the same time, I have data to back this up and that’s why we went with it.
Nick: And in a lot of ways, the product teams almost have it a little bit easier from that regard. Because you agree on the MVP way beforehand. We will ship the product when it can blank.
I see a lot of teams that either don’t have the time or the luxury of doing that in a messaging positioning sense, marketing sense. So you’re almost figuring it out on the MVP on the fly, and you get a lot of haters. I don’t know if you have Jason, I have a lot of haters.
It’s because I deserve it. I deserve to have a lot of haters, you had said something to me earlier and I’d like to talk about the idea of like disagree and commit or what that is. What do you do when you’re at a launching point and you have either key stakeholders or you yourself disagree with what’s going out the door.
Can you give us a framework to do that with?
Jason: Yeah, I think, jeez. So the disagreeing commit, that’s something that I had heard and I’ve tried and you try your hardest to be this way. You hope that you work with people who are this way, too. But I got, I’ve been in situations before where you’re trying to make a decision on say product naming or how you’re going to position a product. Are you going to price a product? There’s all kinds of things, but you just don’t agree.
You can be someone in the company who is just a naysayer. You could be someone whose positioning goes out there and you can just continue to just wait for your I told you so moment. I think at some point, if you like to take positioning, for example, if you decide as a company and you’re positioning your product in a certain way, everyone should get on board and has to get on board really. Because if there’s people just waiting for that, I told you so moment, it’s never, especially if that person is like your CEO for example.
We’ve all been in these situations where we’re trying to convince our boss, for example, that we should do a certain project or hire a certain person. They don’t have buy-in, but at the same time, they let you do it, but then they hold it over you kind of. They’re waiting for that moment to be like, I knew that person was going to work out.
Jason: The idea of disagreeing committed is really someone who’s like, I disagree with this, but I’m committed to making it work, or I’m committed to moving forward with it. I’m going to stand behind it because if it’s a group decision and the majority want to go in one way, the people who don’t agree with it, can’t be dragged down. They just have to disagree with it and just move forward.
I like that idea of disagreeing commit. It’s not something I came up with. It was something I had heard. I think it was a HubSpot thing. I don’t know. But, it’s something that it’s a methodology, a frame of mind that or way to think that I really liked. Because there’s no way you’re going agree on everything, but you do have to, you can’t just drag on a positioning exercise forever.
At some point, you do need to commit to something.
Nick: I think the idea too of going into it and that’s a challenging thing for any product marketers, marketers, sales, whatever it be. Whether it be like going into it knowing the thing you’re going to do, even at its best, they’re going to people that don’t like it. Just knowing that is so freeing in a weird way. I don’t know if you feel the same way like the best version of this people are gonna tell me it’s bad. So when people tell me it’s bad, what I need to listen to is what do they not like? And how many people do not like it? That comes back to the positioning validation we talked about.
I think by the time this goes out, our Ask an Expert blog will be out, Jason that had some really cool thoughts on how to validate your positioning and messaging. But, whether it be like you said positioning pricing like take the seven things product marketing does, there are bad opinions on it in the same way that when you build a feature, people don’t like how it works. Whatever you do, knowing that you’re going to get that negative, even if it’s constructive or destructive feedback. Going into it knowing, I’m going to sift through that feedback for the what they’re saying and ignore the negative vibes.
Jason: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting because I’m not a psychologist. I’m not an expert of the mind, and I don’t know how to tell people to deal with imposter syndrome. Right. I can talk about how I have talked about some of the things or at least the way I think about it.
I think one of the things that just helps is understanding that oh, all people deal with this stuff, but I just know part of product marketing you’re working across so many teams. You’re responsible for all these different kinds of… I don’t know. Product marketing almost seems like this bucket that all kinds of random jobs are tossed into at a company because you’re responsible for a number of different things.
So, you’re asked to really switch gears a lot in a day. So, naturally you just can’t be the expert in everything. I think that just knowing that everyone is dealing with it, and then it’s just kind of normal. But to your point, kind of knowing that and expecting that, it could be like a freeing sort of thing and allow people to do it with a little bit less stress.
Nick: I think so. By the way, you’re on a podcast, you are the expert of the mind. No one can answer back to you right now, so whatever you say is right.
Nick: I just want to cap off this discussion to what you said, right? If you follow the product marketing alliance, if you follow these different communities, the question always goes up like, OKRs? What are you responsible for? How are you structuring your OKRs?
I think perhaps some of the lack of clarity around exactly what you’re responsible for is what leads to a lot of this anxiety or whatever that is. Right.
Jason: Hm. Yeah.
Nick: Because maybe you don’t have a number to hit, maybe people think you have a number to hit and you don’t, or you do have a number to hit, but you don’t know how to measure it, whatever that is. Can I just get your opinion? By the way, this is an opinion, this is not, because everybody has their own opinion on this. There’s no right answer.
How should product marketing be represented when it comes to OKRs of objectives and key results or key performance indicators? How should product marketing be measured?Just your thoughts.
Jason: Yeah, so I guess I’ve had a mix of things. In my last company, so Chili Piper. As product marketing, we were essentially aligned with a business unit, and we were measured on that business unit’s ability to generate revenue. Like pipeline and close revenue. So at Chile Piper, product marketers were very much kind of like a brain or a business owner. Right.
We had multiple products. Each one was responsible like the quarterback of that business, kind of like the GM and we would run off revenue. I think it depends on how your team is structured. If a product marketer is in your company, like the owner of a particular line of business, and you’re directly kind of taking on more than just, yeah.
I think if you are taking on that role of being like the GM of a particular line of business, then I think like aligning with revenue, I think aligning with revenue is always a good thing. I think that knowing that I did new positioning and that impacted X dollars in revenue is going to be obviously really hard.
But, I do think that all teams should care about revenue, right? Because it is something that everyone is impacting, and I do think that everyone having a bit of skin in the game, when it comes to hitting your revenue target every quarter is an important thing. Everyone should care about it too.
I do think that some of the things that I know we’re focusing on for the product marketing team at Klue, and again this kind of comes back to our competitor enablement program that we’re running. You want to impact when rates specifically are competitive win rates. So, if through competitive enablement or like better positioning, you’re able to help the sales team increase their win rates or decrease the sales cycle length or increase the average deal size. Those are things that you can monitor and be able to track and know if you’ve been able to see an uptick since you’ve started.
If you’re starting a product marketing function from scratch, then it’s great that you’re able to see how you’ve been able to impact that. Or if you know that you have a certain competitive win rate against a competitor, and you’re currently doing nothing to enable the sales team around how you compete against them, and then you implement it.
Say you create a battlecard to enable your team, and you’re able to watch over a quarter, your competitive win rate against that competitor goes up by 10 percent, then obviously that’s a good way to measure it. I think another thing too is…I’ve talked to, I remember a product marketing leader that I talked to in the past, his view was product marketing is very tough to be like everything we did, impacted a number of specifically.
I know the way that he measured his team was all based on project completion and like hey, we have a number of key projects that we’re working on. Are we able to deliver on these things? So it really is a mixed bag.
I guess the last thing I’ll mention too is sales confidence, or a confidence score across all the teams that you enable. If you are able to capture that quarterly, monthly, however you want to do it. I know it’s hard to get like these teams to always do surveys, but if you’re able to see the confidence in what you’re providing and how you’re supporting them as a customer go up, then obviously that’s a sign that you’re doing the right stuff.
Nick: When I think about it, that’s where I start. I love the idea of measuring revenue, but I think a lot of small companies and a lot of companies with longer sales cycles, to be honest, right. You had mentioned hey, if your win rate against this competitor goes up 10%. Sure if you’re going through that many deals, but if you close three deals a quarter and that’s a good quarter, that’s really hard to measure.
Nick: But, I like starting with, do the people around you think you and your team are contributing to them? If you could start with that, whether it be a survey, however you want to quantify that, start there and grow in the way that you can. Because you can always have that. You could always have that.
If everybody thinks that you’re adding value, we’re going to worry about this specific attribution later because everybody likes working with you and they like what you’re doing. I think that goes in a lot of ways too, but specifically product marketing when it comes to what you’re responsible for and what you do. I see it’s tough, but I really like your thought on hey, like the business unit pinning to revenue.
We are at the, I think it’s the top of the hour here, so I want to close out here for one question. I just want to make sure, if anybody’s watching this, we didn’t plan the green and red thing for the holidays.This just kind of happened.
Jason: I may have planned it. Who knows? I feel like my wardrobe this whole week has been either green or red.
Nick: Yeah. I’ve got my ugly sweater ready to…what’s it called? Ready to go today.
But, so, big wide question. Where do you see product marketing going over the next five years? Right?
You said it’s a bucket that everybody throws things into. Where’s that bucket going?
Jason: We were having a conversation about this yesterday. Just how much more popular and more common a product marketer is even in early stage startups. Right. Product marketing is just continuing to become more of a key hire in many cases, too. Like your first marketing hire.
I think you’re starting to see product marketing become more of a very key marketing role. Whereas five years ago, a lot of companies didn’t even have a product marketer. I think it’s going to become more and more of a key role, a strategic kind of role within a company because of two things.
One, competition’s just getting so much more prevalent. It’s so easy to spin up software. You look at Bubble and No-Code and all this stuff, but it’s so easy to create a product that kind of disrupts a whole category. Right, with the five people in someone’s garage. It’s just you know, you look at even the MarTech landscape, which I’m sure you’re familiar with. It’s just blown up completely. It’s so much.
I think it’s just competition’s going to become more of a real thing. Things like CES, things liken positioning in general are just going to become more and more important. It’s like what makes you different from your competitor as much as people care about your product. I think that’s going to become more and more important because of that, the product marketing function will become more and more important.
Then, the other thing that I think is interesting. By no means would I say I’m definitely, like my knowledge of web three is very very limited, but I find it very fascinating. I think that one of the things is that it’s an opportunity for everyone, but I’ve noticed web three companies are hiring product marketers. I think that what you’re going to see is just web three creates this whole other space now and where you’re just going to have new categories, new types of products popping up everywhere.
I think that marketing and like product marketing and positioning and just the way you take something complex and explain it to people it’s gonna become product marketing and web three is going to be a really important thing.
I know community is super important and all that, but I just think like the way that web three is explained and like products within web three and all the all kinds of different platforms and everything, it’s just going to be positioning and how you explain the product to the market is going to be really important. I think product marketers are going to have a lot to do with web three.
Nick: Yeah. Well, we were talking with Christina Libby, she’s the CMO at Hyper Giant, an AI driven company. We were talking about how do you explain an AI product, right? No one understands what it’s like, maybe, and she was talking about how you have to focus on what you’re doing.
I’ve been waiting and actually you just won the prize. You’re the first podcast guest to mention web three, so hats off to you. I’ve been waiting for it.
Nick: I think that the two things are one. Exactly what you said, explaining what is your thing and how is it different from the 12 other things that would seem to be exactly like you which I think we’re going to see a lot more of.
The second thing is to that, product marketers. I think it’s the product market fit of there are 12 other things, just like what we’re thinking of doing. Why is this different? Why does this matter? Is this a bad idea? I think you’re good to see a lot more quicker to fail, whether it be companies or products, whatever that is. That’s part of the promise of the iteration and all that.
I think product marketing has a seat at the table when it comes to hey guys, this is a good idea or this is a bad idea because blank. I think that’s really cool.
Jason: I think I might not be. I was going to say, might not even be the product marketer. I just think product marketing, you know that idea of it’s less about the more, what we’ve known as marketing for the last number of years in SAS. Which has been about more sleep dimension, pay campaign, social content, all of that. It’s more of the strategic side of marketing that you’re kind of asking a lot of those key questions. I think that will just be a really important function within a lot of these.
Nick: Any other, anything else to mention or plug before we go?
Jason: No, I would say listen to this podcast. Oh, actually one thing, on January 5th with Shear Bird, I’ll be doing an AMA about creating a product marketing team from the ground up, so definitely check that out. And I can shoot you the link, maybe you can share it.
Nick: Okay. Yeah, shoot me the link. This will definitely be out after January 5th. So what I’m going to do is, if you go to the Mind the Gap site, we’re gonna feature that link at the top of the page.
Nick: And you’ll be able to see the MOA because I’m sure the information will be timeless.
Jason: True. True. It will stay there forever.
Nick: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, ladies and gentlemen, Jason Oakley. Thank you.
Jason: Thanks a lot Nick.
Nick: This has been Mind the Gap, a podcast about sales and marketing alignment put on by Enablix. My name is Nick Lopez. Thanks for listening.